Weights are taken from flight manuals. Power is best I can get from what I have




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NameWeights are taken from flight manuals. Power is best I can get from what I have
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Fuastnik

Fw190A1: 3660kg Power: 1600ps Power Loading: 2.29 kg/ps
Fw190A2: 3855kg Power: 1730ps Power Loading: 2.23 kg/ps
Fw190A3: 3855kg Power: 1730ps Power Loading: 2.23 kg/ps
Fw190A4: 3862kg Power: 1770ps Power Loading: 2.18 kg/ps
Fw190A5: 4106kg Power: 1770ps Power Loading: 2.32 kg/ps
Fw190A6: 4186kg Power: 1770ps Power Loading: 2.36 kg/ps
Fw190A7: 4213kg Power: 1770ps Power Loading: 2.38 kg/ps
Fw190A8: 4272kg Power: 2050ps Power Loading: 2.08 kg/ps
Fw190A9: 4370kg Power: 2100ps Power Loading: 2.08 kg/ps

Weights are taken from flight manuals. Power is best I can get from what I have.

Looks like the big improvements were with the A4 and A8.


philippewillaume

Joined: Jan 16, 2006
Posts: 40




Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: bmw801










Hello
I though I would share a few of my research on the BMW801D or C, it is coming from a project ob book that never reached completion (due to my laziness really)

As an introduction, there are few things that need to be cleared about engine curves and data about engine.
The engine data, in the FW manual, are always given in free air and at a speed 0 and without exhausts trust.
As you can see most of the German curves give the exhaust thrust and the engine output at different speeds.
The FW as almost all the fighter of that period used the exhaust from the engine to generate thrust.
You will notice as well a difference between the critical altitude with a speed 0 and the critical attitude of the plane in flight. If you look at the German engine curves you will see that the engine critical altitude for that speed range matches the critical altitude of the plane in flight. This can be explained by the ram effect of the air intake that helps the compressor to be more efficient at higher altitude hence a higher critical altitude.
The external ram air intakes “booster�described in chapter 1 are just increasing this effect compared to normal air intake.

The other point to remember is that all the FW190 family had a device called “Kommandogerät�. Basically this is a small hydraulic device that automatically selects the engine revolution, the compressor gear ratio, the spark advance, the manifold pressure, the air/fuel mixture and the propeller pitch. All the pilot has to do was setting the throttle. This was done in order to decrease the pilot workload and letting his hands and his head free for fighting. As you will see in lots of evaluation/comparison reports this device is often held responsible for the very good initial acceleration of the FW 190 plane and it’s lack of fine tuning by US pilots.

BMW 801 C
14 cylinders in two rows, radial engine with 1 stage 2 speeds compressor, Air-cooled (12-bladed-fan assisted), using direct injection and B4 (87% octane) fuel.
This engine equipped the FW190 A1 and A2.
The difference between the A1 and the A2 is to be the use of the BMW801 C2 engine in the A2 and BMW 801 C1 in the A1. I have not been able to find any curves to differentiate the two engines. All the documentation I have found is only labelled C.
My guess (and it is a guess) is that the C2 is a C1 with exhaust modified following the overheating problems on the A1 It used the B4 fuel 87 % octane. The manual for the BMW801 states that it could used C3 if certain directive were followed.

Here is the values I have from the manual for the A1-A4 series (from July 43) and they are confirmed by the BMW 801 C/D engine manuals.
The values are in free air without exhaust trust and at a speed of 0 km/h
Low level
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 900 1600 2700 1.32
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes 700 1460 2400 1.27
Hochstdauerleistung None 1300 1280 2300 1.15
Hochstsparleistung None 1500 1030 2100 1.10
Altitude (critical altitude)
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 4600 1380 2550 1.30
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes 4400 1310 2400 1.27
Hochstdauerleistung None 4500 1170 2300 1.15
Hochstsparleistung None 4200 990 2100 1.10
Start-notlesistung = start and emergency power, I.e. WEP or combat power
Steig- kampfleistung = climb and fight power, i.e. Military power
Hochstdauerleistung = best duration power. I.e. Normal cruise
Hochstsparleistung = best save power. I.e. Economical cruise

I had seen those values being confirmed by several reports in the PRO, all coming from captured documents. There is small contention on the attitude rpm for Start-notlesistung at the critical altitude
UK documents shows a value of 2700 rpm dated from 1943. This is probably a mistake for it is only true for the BMW 801 D. All other captured documents state that the value of the rpm was 2550.
Note:
In some publication you will see a Sea Level PS value of 1560 for the BMW C1. This is consistent with the data curves, the 1600 ps is at 900 meters

There is a limit of 1 minute, for the Start-notlesistung, at low level for an overloaded plane. This is coming from the engine manual and its translation (PRO air 40/47 files)
The engine was tested to run up to 3000 rpm and produced around 1700 ps but the engine had 50 % chance of seizing after 1 minute of use. The Russian did a similar test with the same result. The fact that the revolution of the engine was limited to 2700 even in dive confirms those findings, if need be. As far as I can tell this limitation applies for all the 801 series

BMW 801 D
14 cylinder in two row, radial engine with 1 stage 2 speeds compressor, Air-cooled (12-bladed-fan assisted), using direct injection and C3 (96-100 % octane) fuel.
This engine equipped the FW 190 A3 to A8, F1 to F8 and G1 to G8, however the engine was continually improved.
The early version, installed on the A3 did, did not have the chromed sparks and chromed exhaust pipe.
This is known as a de-rated version of the engine. This is clearly explained by the BMW 801 C/D manual
(Air 40/53)
Faber’s A3 was in that condition, and it seems that most of the early ground attack plane were in the same condition. (See the plane comparison chapter for more details).
It seems as well that in early 43 the exhaust and the compressor have been modified to provide more power and less overheating.

De-rated BMW801 D
Low level
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes ?? 1600 (uk) 2700 1.35
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes ?? 1480 (uk) 2350 1.28
Hochstdauerleistung None ?? ?? 2250 1.14
Hochstsparleistung None ?? ?? 2100 1.10
Altitude (critical altitude)
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes ?? 1600 (uk) 2700 1.35
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes ?? 1520 (uk) 2350 1.28
Hochstdauerleistung None ?? ?? 2250 1.14
Hochstsparleistung None ?? ?? 2100 1.10
?? Means that I do not know
Uk means that this is coming from a German document from the PRO in the UK as opposed as the FW190 manual.

Fully rated BMW801 D
Low level
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 0.6 1730 2700 1.42
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes 0.7 1520 2400 1.32
Hochstdauerleistung None 1.2 1370 2300 1.20
Hochstsparleistung None 1.8 1060 2100 1.10
Altitude (critical altitude)
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 5.7 1440 2700 1.42
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes 4.3 1320 2400 1.32
Hochstdauerleistung None 5.5 1180 2300 1.20
Hochstsparleistung None 5.4 985 2100 1.10

Start-notlesistung = start and emergency power, I.e. WEP or combat power
Steig- kampfleistung = climb and fight power, i.e. Military power
Hochstdauerleistung = best duration power. I.e. Normal cruise
Hochstsparleistung = best save power. I.e. Economical cruise

BMW 801 D with “erhöhte Notleistung�
The detail on how it works is explained in chapter one.
BMW 801 Q (TU)
14 cylinders in two rows, radial engine with 1 stage 2 speeds compressor, Air-cooled (12-bladed-fan assisted), using direct injection and C3 (96-100 % octane) fuel. This engine is a hybrid engine using parts of the BMW801 D and F/E.
The assembly chart gives use the part number for the TU: 9-8801 U1. The captured A8 from September 44 (PR0 AIR 40/151) confirms that the part number 9-8801 U1 is associated to the BMW 801 Q. As far as the plane tag is concerned the name of the engine was BMW 801 D/NL. It is difficult to know if the NL standing for the “erhöhte Notleistung�, for more detail on this device see the paragraph on Laderdruckerhöhung, or for just the fact that the engine was a BMW801 Q and had a better performances than the BMW 801 D.
Unfortunately I do not have any chart for this engine. According to divers German text, the performance was close of the TS /TH up to the critical altitude but just a bit better than the D above that The erhöhte Notleistung was serialised since June, I believe that this engine was not installed before that date anyway, as it seems that it entered in service in July 44. So it is very likely that the erhöhte Notleistung was built in with the power egg as the A8 maunual indicates.

Low level
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes
Hochstdauerleistung None
Hochstsparleistung None
Altitude (critical altitude)
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes
Hochstdauerleistung None
Hochstsparleistung None


BMW 801 S (TS)
14 cylinders in two rows, radial engine with 1 stage 2 speeds compressor, Air-cooled (12 -bladed-fan assisted), using direct injection and C3 (96-100 % octane) fuel. This is another hybrid between the BMW801 D and the E. Erhöhte Notleistung device serialised in January 45.
This engine was used on the A9, F9 and G9
Part number: 9-8801 S1
Low level
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 1000 2040 2700 1.65
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes
Hochstdauerleistung None
Hochstsparleistung None
Altitude (critical altitude)
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 5700 1710 2700 1.65
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes
Hochstdauerleistung None
Hochstsparleistung None
Data from BMW chart for BMW801 E/S from 01-X-44 (only for Start und Notleistung but as you can see it is the same as for the BMW 801 E.
The difference between the BMW 801 S the BMW 801 E engine is explained in air 40/55. The global idea is that the TS retained lots of the D2 components as opposed to the TH that had more new components.

BMW 801 E (TH)
14 cylinders in two rows, radial engine with 1 stage 2 speeds compressor, Air-cooled (12-bladed-fan assisted), using direct injection and C3 (96-100 % octane) fuel.
Erhöhte Notleistung device planed to be serialised in March 45.
Part number: 9-8801 H1
Low level
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 1200 2050 2700 1.65
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes 1700 1740 2500 1.45
Hochstdauerleistung None 2200 1450 2400 1.30
Hochstsparleistung None 2800 1200 2200 1.15
Altitude (critical altitude)
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 5700 1705 2700 1.65
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes 5500 1500 2500 1.45
Hochstdauerleistung None 5800 1350 2400 1.30
Hochstsparleistung None 5800 1160 2200 1.15
Data from BMW chart for BMW801 E/F from 15-I-43

BMW 801 F (TF)
14 cylinders in two rows, radial engine with 1 stage 2 speeds compressor, Air-cooled (14-bladed-fan assisted), using direct injection and C3 (96-100 % octane) fuel.

The document that made the difference between the BMW801 E and the BMW 801 F is from the PRO AIR 40/55. This document is from 13-feb-45. As you can see from the power curve the 801 F is more powerful that the E. That being said, I have document from late 43 comparing the BMW801 D, F and J and the BMW 801 F is called TH. The F being called TF and the E being TH is from another BMW document (in the good old AIR 40/55) dating from February 45. In the same PRO file a document from early June 44, mentions the 801 F as being the TH. What I suspect happened was is that the two early documents where what was planed and the latest one is was did actually happened. The BMW801 E benefited of the researches done for the F and got lots of the improvement intended for the F engine line. I Suspect that the E was more or less what the F was planed to be in late 43 and as development continued, the production got the letter E and the letter F was used for the in-development engine.
Low level
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 1500 2240 2700 1.75
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes
Hochstdauerleistung None
Hochstsparleistung None
Altitude (critical altitude)
Regime Time permissible Altitude (m) Power (PS) RPM Pressure
Start-notlesistung 3 minutes 6300 1880 2700 1.75
Steig- kampfleistung 30 minutes
Hochstdauerleistung None
Hochstsparleistung None
Data from BMW 801 F no data only start und Notleistung curve.


I think i know what you are getting at.
I though you were talking about the 525 @SLv rs the 540@SL but i think you mean the 540 @ Sl and 560/565 @SL.

I am not sure we can really talk in trems of version and speed. the bmw801 was a power egg so i think it is more a question of time than a question of model


Speed wise.
It is very complicated.
You need to know what was the weight of the plane.
German keeps removing/installing the outer gun on every model
You have plenty of picture of A6-7-8-9 without the outer mg 151/20 and plenty of a2-3-4-5 with the MG FFM (and that was a kit….) and modifying bit of the engine without changing the official designation.

Here a quick summary of the speed I have found i hope it is not going to get mangled by the post formating...
Plane type date of the curve origin Weight (kg) Sea level (kmh) Crit. Alt(Kmh)
A2 or A3 (bmw801 c) Messerschmitt1 3800 525 645-47
Graph 29-VI-43Messerschmitt curve Messerschmitt2 3800. (prb 3900) 520 630
A3 faber 42 UK 3900 + 525 627-635
A1-A4 (VII-43)I think there is a light typo in manual. They have inversed the wep and the climb power. Like that it would fit. FW manual 3900 526 (wep)537 (strt&k) 676 (wep)645 (strt&k)
A4 (2400 rpmConsistent with uk curve and Messerchmitt of derated plane) VVS 3989 510(525 Russian value from an other curve) 620(625 Russian value from an other curve)
A4-A5?No date Fw curve Messerschmitt1 3800. (prb 3900) 540 678
A5 46 US 3871 563 668
A4 (28-XI-42)(This is probably the original Rechling curve no mg FFM Fw 3840 565 680
A5 (29-VI-43)Rechling curve. Messerschmitt2 3800. (prb 3900) 567 680
A5 28-VIII-43 FW (1) No weight 550 580 678 680
A5 (14-III-43) FW (2) 4100 565 655
A5 (XII-43) FW manual 4100 560 660
A6+gm1 (14-III-43) FW (2) 4340 560 650
A8 (3-XII-43) FW(3) 4150 560 647
A8 +GM1 (3-XII-43) FW(3) 4300 557 645
A8 (no date prb late 44 early 45) Luft No weight(4.250 is likely) 560 585 645 660
A8 (11-V-44) FW 4360 555 580 644 655
A8 (15-VIII-44) US 4300 545 565 645 650
A9 (11-V-44) Fw 4250 570 675
A9 (not the same engine as before) Luft No weight 575 670

As you can see
525 & 635 A2-A3 and de- rated A4 (645 if the mG FFM deleted)


535/540 & 680 fully rated A4 (+modified exhaust and sparks plugs?) This is a potentially valid for another series of data from a single messerchmit document quoting a Fw and a Reichling curve 535-540 Ã 647-652 for 3800 ie 3890) no mgFFM in any case.
i would guess at least mid 42....

565 & 680 fully rated; with the new compressor and new exhaust standard on the A5 (and probably late A4) No mg FFm
I would say late 42

For the A8
I would use 560 (585 with E.N) @ Sl, 645 @6400 (660 @5500)
This is without the back seat tank so that 4.220 kg
Which was optional (that is a rustsatz on the construction chart)

For a A8 without the back tank and with the mg 151/20 deleted
We can use the A5 for base
560 & 660 (565Ã 655 if you prefer Reichling figures) and add the 35-40 kmh for the EN; Ie 590/595 @sl and 670/665 @ 5500 m

For the A8 with the full Monty (back seat and outer gun) I would use the German figures they look coherent with rest. Besides that what they test seems to have been made with I am not sure how representative of real life situation that is but


---------------------------------------------

I think that it very reasonable to believe that a FW190 prior to june 42 could be either derated or normal.
A June 42 BMW manual says that it could fully rated or derated and you have maintenance time for both. It is not irrefutable proof but that good circumstantial evidences.

That is interesting; in the PRO from sometime around april-june 42 there a technical instruction on how to change/install a new compressor (or a low level compressor). (I have not a clue when it was integrated into production.
I believe that is what caused the improvement at low level

From what I think the C3 adjustment (or the lack of knocking effect) is responsible for the 540 & 675/680 performances we have. (They are all from after june 42)

Do you thing that the chromed spark plugs and the chromed exhaust inlet would have delayed or retarde the knocking effect?
I would be tempted to believe that a fully rated fw 190 would have had that type of performance.
What do you think?

phil





CRUMPP

You have amassed quite a bit but I would suggest looking for the complete "Konstruction Beanstandungen" reports. These are monthly published by Focke Wulf Flugzeugbau, Gmbh, Bremen's Technischer Aussendienst-Truppe.

The "light" fighter variant is not longer a Jadg-einsatz after the FW-190A4. There simply is no difference in the air regarding performance with or without the outboard weapons.

The only fighter variant from the FW-190A5/above to have the outboard cannon removed is the Rustsatz 6. This was done to make room for the wiring needed for the rockets. This disappears when the "universal" wiring harness is adopted.

Other than that only the bombenflugzeugen and schlachtflugzeugen have the outboard cannons removed. Some individual fighter pilots did remove them at first, however. Once confidence was gained though the substantial increase in firepower was much more attractive than the non-existent reduction in performance so the practice disappears.

As for the de-rating, all motors are "de-rated" when new and must observe a break in period before using full power. That is a fact for any engine, whether it is in a Focke Wulf, motorcycle, or your lawnmower. All BMW801's were de-rated for the first 10 hours of use. In service aircraft, the most common reason for de-rating is to use stockpiles of inferior fuel grades. You can see this in the numerous Technical Orders issued by the RAF and the USAAF regarding fuel types and boost limits.

When C3 was first used it did not have the expected knock limited performance. Based on the Beanstandungen's not all BMW801D2's were "de-rated" after the initial 10 hours. It appears that motors were individually de-rated as some motors exhibited knock limited performance below the rated boost. Once the alkane ratio was adjusted in C3 in June 1942 raising the knock limited performance of the fuel, this additional "de-rated" time disappears. I have found no "blanket order" de-rating the 801 series. Only comparisons of maintenance times for "normal" and "de-rated" engines being operated side by side in the Geschwaders prior to June 1942.

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